Come and join us across the globe
Dr. Thanh Nguyen
Director of interventional neurology/ neuroradiology
Boston Medical Center (BMC)
USA
Through her engagement with the WINN group, Thanh Nguyen is striving to raise awareness for more female representation in INR and ensure the same level of visibility and recognition. Join her in this inspiring interview!
Can you present the WINN initiative & more specifically your role in this group?
For a long time, women have always had an interest in meeting other women in the neurointerventional specialty, as we were few and far between. Women can have a different approach and set of challenges unique to our field. I was exchanging some greetings with Dr. Rolla Bigliani in Genova, Italy. When she remarked how it would be nice for us to meet at a conference one day, this triggered the idea to form a Whatsapp Women in Neurointervention (WINN) group with several other colleagues, so we could instantly connect. Together, we found each other across the globe, and we grew our WINN initiative.
The WINN initiative is now a Whatsapp network of over 325 women neurointerventionalists across the globe exchanging challenging or interesting cases, practice trends, INR academic resources, opportunities for meeting each other at conferences, job opportunities, and all things considered. I would like to extend special mention to Dr. Sandra Narayanany, Dr. Isil Saatci and many others who played an important role with recruiting women across the world into this group.
WINN has no hierarchy. We are here to help and support each other along the way. My role as the Whatsapp "administrator" is to help women fellows or attendings in neurointervention gain access to our network.
What strategies have you employed to increase awareness of the need for more female representation in INR & to ensure that female neuroradiologists receive the same level of visibility and recognition as their male counterparts?
Most neurointerventional societies now have a dedicated women's neurointerventional group.
I credit our many women leaders within our societies who have done a fantastic job in raising awareness for female representation in INR. Drs. Robin Novakovic and Cynthia Kenmuir of the Society of Vascular and Interventional Neurology have led an all-women panel at our annual meeting to open discussion of career pathways, aspirations for women in neurointervention with our trainees and early-mid career faculty. Dr. Novakovic also initiated a multi-society women speaker registry with their related area of expertise so that any societal meeting can consult this list when looking for a female speaker. Drs. Agid, Powers, Novakovic and Kenmuir have built a women mentorship program within WFITN and SVIN.
For WINN, once our group was formed, several women led initiatives to increase awareness of our group and to be connected. Dr. Kristine Blackham and Dr. Anat Horev initiated WINN chat, where a few of us would present a neuroendovascular topic and we would discuss technique, cases, etc... Dr. Kristine Blackham leads our Facebook group, Dr. Helena de Sousa Guerreiro leads our Instagram presence, and I lead our Twitter presence ( @WomeninNeuroIR ). Our purpose is to amplify the voices, recognize the work, the advocacy, the cases, the talks, the research, and the presence of women in Neurointervention, which in turn, we hope may inspire young women to see they can follow our paths.
What impact do you hope to have on the field of neuroradiology through your efforts?
Like many others, we hope that our efforts will help to improve the lives of our patients, and that our educational efforts and research help us gain understanding of the patients we should or should not treat. How do we select our patients for intervention? Seeking the highest level of evidence for our interventions has always been at the forefront of work for many pioneers in our field, including one of my great mentors Dr. Jean Raymond who continues to innovate towards pragmatic randomized care trials for hemorrhagic disease. I aspire to follow this path.
What challenges have you faced for more female representation?
If 10 to 15% of physicians in the neurointerventional field are women, the question is what is an appropriate ratio of women one should target to have represented as speaker in a societal meeting? Some advocate half. I don't know what is the right answer, I think somewhere in between. Most meeting organizers are very aware of the importance of having women be represented at a speaker level for their meetings (not just moderators) and major societies are making good inroads into the proportion of women on a speaker panel.
Another challenge we observe is how to have more women representation in clinical leadership positions within their own hospital division, academic rank, clinical trials, observational studies, as lead investigators, co-investigators, and authors of the related research. Women receive less industry and research compensation than men. Gender pay compensation is significantly lower among women. Women are often passed for promotion to leadership positions because they may not vocalize their strengths or ask for a leadership position as men would at equal rank. Women consider the position when nominated whereas men ask for the position. Men ask to be speaker faculty at a meeting whereas women wait to be asked.
How female representation in INR changed over the last years?
As more women enter the field in INR, we have seen an increase in female representation as the early women serve as a model for the younger women who may be interested in pursuing the field. "If she can do it, I can do this too."
What is the current situation / gender gap in INR? And, what do you think are the biggest obstacles remaining today?
The biggest obstacles are juggling family vs career life. In INR, our call burden can be onerous. How does one organize a weekend outing with children if one is on call? You need back-up because we have to drop everything and go to the acute stroke. There are many things I don't do when I'm on call beyond a 10-minute radius from my home or my car.
While many organizations have maternity leave policies in place, there may be a concern of going on maternity leave and leaving your partners to take more calls, or not doing your share of calls. Some women abbreviate their maternity leave because of these concerns, other women take the full time (which they should).
How to increase awareness of the value women bring to the field? What changes would you like to see in the field of neuroradiology to improve the experience of female neurointerventionalists?
Women bring a diversity of opinion and balance to the field. Some studies suggest women physicians (surgeons) have better outcomes than men. Women may not be as inclined to have the most number of cases with x device, but doing what the patient needs based on current evidence.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2788543
It would be good to ensure that women have equal access, equal opportunity, and equal pay for the work they are doing.
What is your personal experience as female INR in this male-dominated field?
My experience as a female INR has been positive. Some opportunities were likely born because of organizations with a mandate for equal gender representation. So I put the time in.
In a conference that may be male-dominated, as a female INR, you can always find interesting and kind persons, female or male, to speak with.
One cannot expect to fit in with every group. It is known that some men like to network with each other, which is understandable. Sometimes our opinions are divergent. We respect our differences and embrace our diversity. If you have a strong opinion, comment or question, it is important to speak up.
What inspired you to become an advocate for women in neuroradiology?
I learned that women in neurointervention like to be connected, that they are not alone in this road less traveled. As we are not numerous, some younger early career women or trainees are interested to hear our paths, so I've volunteered as a mentor for WFITN and SVIN. Interacting and engaging with several bright young women has been a rewarding experience for me.
What advice would you give to young women considering a career in INR? And, how to encourage them to pursue a career in interventional neuroradiology?
Although not every journey is and will be like mine, the advice I give to women in this field is to find what you love to do. By taking on challenges and asking for opportunities, it will open doors.
The next question for those considering INR is if they are ready to take on the lifestyle of a neurointerventionalist. There is some restriction in degrees of freedom you need to contend with, particularly if one thinks about family or wellness later in life. This advice is true not only for women, but also for men. If you know you can have a community of support, i.e. supportive spouse, family, etc. this lifestyle can be achieved with some degree of balance.
Once you have mentally crossed this potential barrier, then try a rotation or two in INR to see if this is something you would like to do as your career. It is important to have a strong base, from whichever field you are entering from any of the neuroscience disciplines i.e. neurology, neurosurgery, or radiology because it will serve you well later in your career.
Don't forget about your wellness, however you define it for you. It is very easy to get carried away with the chaos of work, deadlines, conferences, but remember to be kind to yourself.